Howdy Beekster.....just thought I'd post some pics of my finished Madill - not perfect but yer can at least see what it is....sorta! Anyhoo, thank you immensely for the help you gave with this project it really is much appreciated
I will be making up a dioramic base for this on a sliced log when I get the chance....thanks again!
Nemo, that is outstanding! It looks more than "sort-of" the part. Trust me, only someone who has crawled over one as much as I have will ever know the difference.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Another quick update. Though the CDL has been the focus of my attention the last few weeks, the yarder hasn't been completely dormant. I now have the front gear & clutch cover roughed in as seen here:
There's still a fair bit of work to do on that element; it needs three small access plates to be added as well as the front door, along with treadplate all over the top. This is my third attempt at this assembly. The first one was begun with .010" sheet, which proved to be far too fragile. I started over with .020" and got further, but ran into dimensional issues as it came out too wide to fit. This was a case where my materials are much larger than scale so I had to make some concessions to get things to fit. The real cover is thin-gauge sheet steel, no more than an eighth of an inch thick...mine scales out at nearly three-quarters. The difference is all on the inside, but amazingly I have clearance for the gears, clutches, and winch drum. That yet-to-be-added front door will get slapped on the front; I won't try to cut out the opening. Doing so would fatally weaken the structure, and you can't see that far forward through the small roof hatch anyway. I will ensure that I rig the straw drum up front so that I can remove this structure if I so choose to get a look at the stuff inside. And yes, it is painted orange on the inside, too, so that will also happen eventually.
I need to stop and stare at it a while about as it looks now, but with the radiator and guard added on the back. One of the curses I live with is that I know what all the plumbing looks like under the back deck and where it goes. I have to make some choices about how much of that I want to try to add, knowing that it will be a pain in the butt to work and paint around. In the meantime, as painting and tracks progress on the CDL project I will start cutting plastic for the operator's cab.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Oh, here's another puzzle to solve: These shots show that I have an intake pipe installed running from the air cleaner to the turbocharger, made of pieces of sprue cut and glued together. This actually ties the structure back there together and stiffens it, which is nice. But...
That first image shows a hole in the turbo, where the exhaust pipe must go...and therein lies the challenge. It curves up under the deck, then turns ninety degrees to go straight aft and out the back, where it turns 90 degrees straight up and extends for several feet to the tip. That section has been made, and must be glued to the bottom of the deck. But the pipe from the turbo must be made so that it lines up with the other one, preferably with a plug joint so that the two pipe sections will lock together by friction after the deck is painted top and bottom. That's going to be fun to work out...
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
I'll grant that a Madill yarder is a very ambitious project, Dogfish, but it's not beyond the skills of most anyone who frequents this board...lots of guys here have the chops to do this. What makes a project like this really difficult is not having enough reference material to do the job, and I couldn't do this one without having had a semi-derelict yarder at my disposal for months at a time a few years ago. Nemo's work is really good, but really close inspection will reveal inaccuracies that stem from not having actual measurements. He's done superbly with just photos to go on, but measurements alone ensure that proportions are correct. By the way, if you want to do one of these definitely contact me off-board...I can fill a couple of DVDs with images, a document I wrote detailing the major features of the unit I measured up and photographed, the operator's manual for the yarder (more helpful than it sounds), a production list, and a document from British Columbia on safe yarding practices. That last is a really good primer for understanding what these machines are supposed to do and how to do it right. That document and the operator's manual help to make sense of what you're building.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Progress continues slowly this week while I try to build tracks for the CDL (Pandas won't stay together; strange...) and the CDL sits while Glosscote sets up before decals go on. The Madill now has a complete exhaust from the turbo up and out:
This has been challenging because I have zero sightlines in there; in hindsight I should have made the deck and left side frame and not yet installed the fuel tank. Oh well, live and learn. The pipe is made primarily of .156" tube stock, stiffened inside by .093" tube. How it all fits together is seen below, and it's rather clever if I do say so myself:
You can see that the pipe curving up from the turbo is permanently affixed to that element. I'm hoping that it is far enough inside that I won't break it off as I continue with the build. The long portion has .093" rod inside and sectioned pieces of .156" tube on the outside, and it sleeves into the turbo outlet pipe. The sectioned pieces are meant to resemble a muffler, and should look the part underneath paint. The join area will be very hard to see once the radiator and associated piping are in place. Installation will be part of final assembly, because the muffler just barely fits through the opening in the frame. The pipe gets pushed together with the deck loose, and then the deck gets rotated into place and set down. This will force me to do several things: First, the underside of the deck has to be detailed and painted before it goes on. Second, the deck frame and exhaust pipes have to be pre-painted as well, and the flexible pipe exiting the fuel tank will have to be long enough to get to where I want it while the deck is hanging about loose. Third, I'll have to be damn careful with the as yet unbuilt personnel railing around the deck so that I don't break it during these gyrations. And fourth, I'll have to model the cab like the real thing: a separate removable assembly. The real one comes off to lower the height for road transport; mine will come off to make construction easier.
Sharp eyes will notice that the radiator fan looks a little shabbier. I built it so that it just fit the radiator opening, which was a mistake...I need a little wiggle room for placement of that element. Also, all the fussing about required to build the exhaust meant fingers getting too close and stressing the blades. Several broke off more than once. I've trimmed them down to get my wiggle room, and flowed superglue in at the hub to strengthen them. Only about half the blades will ever be seen once the model is complete. If I were to do it again, I would make the blades shorter and thicker (.020" instead of .010") right from the start. Hmmm....this sounds like I plan to build another engine for something, doesn't it?
While the CDL is getting decals and I am avoiding its tracks, I've also done a little more on the yarder. The first image illustrates one future challenge: I really need a larger lightbox. This one is almost 16" square inside, and the yarder barely fits. I'm looking at a couple of new ones in the 20"-24" range which will keep the model within the box, though I also probably need to add more lighting. I'm tempted to go as large as 36" since I have tank transporters to shoot as well; haven't decided yet.
The next ones show that I've got the treadplate on the front box cover, which is now ready for primer & paint. It's so light, I will have to tape it down or the airbrush will blow it across the paint bench. I've also got some on the aft deck, but not all. Before that is done, I have to cut and install the angle iron in the center that secures the operator's cab. Then I can add treadplate on the rest of the deck, and eventually trim some of it to add the guardrail on the perimeter. The deck also needs triangular braces for shackles, for times when the deck might be lifted off the yarder, and also a beefy anchor point for the rear guyline.
As usual, none of this is permanently in place but it is really starting to look like a yarder when I mock it up like this. I've tweaked the position of the A-frame that supports the spar stiff-leg when the spar is down like this, and added a slice of .010 sheet to the spar itself so that it fits more tightly to the pivot point on the bedplate.
And finally, I've added some details to the diff cover to match my reference vehicle: A guyline anchor, three more tow lugs on the front, and not really visible are plates on the bottom of the original kit tow lugs to stiffen them. I need to clean up the surface where I moved the A-frame support, add a bit of filler to the kit tow lug joints, add some casing symbols, and do some texturing of the diff cover.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Knowing that I have to start work on the cab soon, I rummaged around the spares warehouse this morning for a seat...if I don't have to build one from scratch, so much the better. I have various snap-fit 1/32 truck kits in the stash as parts donors for a couple of finish-sometime Mack tank transporter projects, and a Volvo tractor donated the seat seen here, crudely cut from it's tub. Obviously, it needs trimming and filling, and a base. It seems to fit well enough compared to the cab template piece, which I made yesterday and is being used to locate the cab footprint on the top deck so that I can build the flanges there that the cab slots into. The seat really does fill the cab, so this looks about right. I'll proceed with cleaning it up and filling in the back and bottom, cutting that down to a realistic size (tub depth is way too deep). Worst case, I find it a little too wide and have to sand it down on the sides. But I don't have to build it from scratch, so I'm happy.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
A bit more progress here. The various Wichita drums are plumbed with .013' diameter florist's wire for the water cooling hoses, and I cut and stained with watercolors a piece of balsa wood for the floor inside the housing.
And this is the beginning of what I call the plumbing nightmare:
The line running from the through-deck pipe to the green elbow atop the junction box is routed correctly. The other one is not; the real one doesn't terminate at the box but I couldn't figure out where it did go. At least here it will curve up out of sight when complete. The real area looks like this:
You are looking at the underside of the top deck, just below the cab. To the right is the rear winch bedplate, and out of frame to the right are all the Wichita drums on the back side. There are two big hoses coming from the left of the frame; the one that goes into the elbow is the correctly-routed one, the other one is the one that I terminated in a hidden area. Just beneath the big hose, as viewed in the photo, is a linear junction with a couple of dozen very small hoses. Getting that built will be fun...You may also notice about half a dozen hoses that drop vertically down from the junction box. I will have to fudge the routing on those. I think that they go out the left side to the sponson, and drive the chain motors that power the three guyline winches. I can't tell for sure, since I don't have close-ups of that area. An in-ground yellowjacket nest by the left rear bogie discouraged me from lingering there.
Referring back to photo #08282, the radiator shows how I am making some of the hard fittings for these hoses. Those are .062" diameter styrene rod (just over two inches in scale, about the right diameter). I drill out each piece to accept .020" brass wire, which I bend to the angle I want (these two are 90 degrees) I superglue everything together and sand the superglue to make the curve uniform. I then drill the other end to accept the wire. With care, I can use this on .047" plastic rod using .016" brass rod for the armature. I'm still looking for good, flexible wire that will work with the smaller diameter rod, and have ordered another ten bucks worth of fine hook-up wire from China this morning.
I've just noticed a couple of details that I need to add to the spar, and when I have those done that element will be ready for primer and paint.
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2017 11:50:23 GMT -5 by beekster: added text for clarity - Back to Top
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Not a lot to report on this one; I was out of town for a few days and some things are percolating in the background. I do have the cab base installed, though: I made a template of .030" stock of the exterior dimensions of the cab, and used that to locate the positions of the perimeter frame for it. There's a little shaping to do and a few bolt heads to add yet. The template has a little handle, so that I can lift it out of there.
I mentioned stuff in the background. There is more electrical wire on the way, and I got some N-scale railcar brake wheels that will just be the bee's knees to go the spigots for the fuel, water, and hydraulic oil tanks. I've sliced off the spigot and hose for the fuel tank (that's two that have been scrapped now) and will rework it again with the new handwheels. Their shape is better and they are much smaller and more delicate than what I previously had on hand. Photos will follow when I get stuff built up.
Likewise, I'm working on the three powered guyline winches that sit on the left sponson. They are complicated little buggers, with 24 bolt heads each (x3, remember...) as well as two other little assemblies: a hydraulically powered chain drive motor that hangs beneath each winch, and drives the winch through a chain & sprockets that are covered by three oval plates (the second little assembly) as seen here:
And this is where I am with these: The winch drives are looking good, though the bolts for the round covers on the sides have yet to be done, and the axle stubs, too. Each of these drives is something like 5/8" tall and less than a quarter wide and thick. The oval chain covers are correct for length and width, but I'm not sure about depth. Once I get the winches secure in the L-shaped frames I will see how the chain covers look. I haven't started on the strange little hanging hydraulic drives yet. And there's more plumbing to be done, oh joy!
Last Edit: Aug 18, 2017 12:23:01 GMT -5 by beekster: added text for clarity - Back to Top
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
I know what you are thinking: "Ooohhh, this doesn't look good...I bet there's a story behind this..."
Well, you would be right. This weekend as I was mocking up the guyline winches on the sponson, things just didn't look right proportionally. The little winches looked OK in relation to the back deck and fuel tank, so they were outboard far enough, but were sitting a little low. But the gap on the inside up against the main winch bedplates was much too wide; the long L-shaped support beam should be nearly flush on the inside. I reached the conclusion that the sponson was too wide, and the winch bedplates not large enough. I need to add material to move the bedplates outward around .100" or so, which will also solve another problem that I lived with and ignored up to now: The little angle at the top of the bedplates was too steep; correcting the size of the bedplate will fix that. Compare these images of the real thing below with earlier photos of the model in this thread and you'll see what I mean. The inability to measure everything on the yarder and lack of actual blueprints is what led to this dimensional error. Fortunately, the fix is straightforward. I'll probably build a whole new sponson since that will be easier than trying to cut down the original and keep it square.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
And now for the good news from the weekend; The spar is finished and primered, ready for color once I get my airbrush situation sorted.
" As for the sponson issue, two slabs of .100 x .188" strip at .750" sitting vertically have extended the winch bedplates at the bottom nicely, and once the eclipse is done (looking eerie already here in Hillsboro) I will start shaping the material which will alter the angles of the structure above that level. Removing the sponson did some collateral damage to the gear/drum covers for the Skyline drum, but those should be pretty straightforward to fix. Repainting the area will get interesting, though. I'm sure I'll be able to shield the shafts further inboard, but the Skyline gear will likely get coated in orange and require repainting by hand with Steel in situ. Could be worse, I suppose.
There is more work to do filling gaps with superglue and dialing in the shape, to say nothing of the restoration and improvement of details, but the proportions are improved even in this rough state. I'm leaving it alone now for the glue to set up and will return to it tomorrow. I really should not have waited this long to correct this, but the end result will be better for having done it.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Time for another progress report. This week I reshaped and extended the winch bedplates outward to correct their shape, and fabricated a new lower sponson. As you can see below, with the guyline winches mocked up, things are looking much more like they should:
And from the front:
Reworking this area was clearly the correct decision. Thankfully, I never busted the exhaust stub coming off the turbo despite multiple iterations of sanding and washing. I did lose the band brake from the little tag drum back there, but that was mostly because painting had "glued" it to the winch drum and turning the winch broke it off. It will be easy to replace, and I will just be more careful with the painting. This rework process also revealed a little about how weathering will progress, since at times sanding dust accumulated elsewhere on the model as I worked. While the white-colored wash that resulted will have to go, the general effect will be great with more usual dust colors later on. And finally, a shot with the front cover and spar mocked up:
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
A few posts back I mentioned some N-scale brake handwheels I got for use as spigot knobs. Here they are:
I got two types, and I am using the Peacock style on this model. These little things are only about .110" across, and require a .016" hole to be drilled to attach them. This is what they look like on the cooling water tank and the bottom of the radiator:
There's another one on the front of the fuel tank but that one's hard to photograph because of the sponson, and there will be one on the square hydraulic oil tank on the deck eventually, too. If you need to make anything resembling plunbing, you need these. These two containers were about $15 (with shipping) direct from Micro-Trains which is down in southern Oregon. Recommended for your scratchbuilding materials stash.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Now, isn't this a crowded, hot mess of wires & hoses!
The deck is upside-down, of course, and nearly all this stuff will get wedged into the space between the engine and the left side wall of the hull. The two loose hoses at right in the first image will find homes at the radiator, the rest will disappear into the unseen bowels of the machine. So far only one casualty from this; the water tank filler pipe got broken off. Oh well, I probably shouldn't have had it on there at this stage in the first place and I'm somewhat surprised I didn't bust it off sooner. Still, replacing it will be straightforward though I won't attach the replacement until just before I intend to prime & paint this piece. I expect that primer and paint will not adhere well to these wires, and that's fine. The real ones were overpainted in orange at the factory, and that tended to wear off over time. Replacement hoses were left black.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
The progress continues this week. I now have the guyline winch structure nearly complete and permanently attached to the sponson. All that is missing are a few bolts, some hydraulic hose guides on the inside of the guard structure, and the three oval chain drive covers. We'll see if I regret gluing this down when it comes to priming and painting, but if nothing else it should be a perfect way to test the capabilities of my new Olympos airbrush.
I chose to lock down the guyline winches because working around their wiring (in reality they would be hydraulic hoses), which disappear into the engine bay, was getting cumbersome. Each winch is run via chain drive from those little gizmos hanging beneath each winch body. The real ones look like this:
And are routed through here:
Mine look like this:
Also visible are the two bottles (compressed air?) up front on the left side. I chose to mount them horizontally; sometimes they are mounted vertically. They have yet to be plumbed, and I need to work that out yet. Like everything else with these machines, where things were routed varied. On the Tillamook machine, a pair of hoses clearly go to a filter/moisture trap mounted on the front of the winch bedplate above the round bolted cover for the skyline drum. A line runs from one bottle to a fitting on the round cover. Other yarders don't show the filter element, so it may be mounted elsewhere. I may run my lines through the gap in the frame and into the space covered by the front box cover.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Several things are being worked on this week, including these:
They are the running blocks for the powered guylines, and as you see they hang from the ring surrounding the Skyline sheave at the tip of the spar. Building them requires some patience and a couple of good punch and die sets for circles. Here's how I do it:
From left to right, I first made up the axles for the shackles using progressively smaller discs, and glued them together around the shackle which has been pre-primed. For the body of each sheave, I punched out discs of .500" and .188" and glued them together on sheet stock. When dry, I cut them out and glued them together with Elmer's, with the punched disc sides facing out. When that was dry, I used sanding sticks to rough in the shape of each pair together and kept them matched up. Then I started punching discs for the sheave inside the block and built up layers as you see in the left side. In the middle, I show how the shackle & axle will fit and some initial shaping with a file of the sheave. The right side shows an assembled unit, with the shackle fixed in place (but it can move) and the sheave finished with a round file. Compared to the real thing, I still need to add axle bolts to the blocks and the loops for a restraining cable. I will make my loops out of .020" brass wire.
I need to give a shout out to RP Toolz of Hungary:
Their punch sets make this possible, along with a larger, more industrial set I got off eBay for something like $20. But RP Tools has these two sets that allow you to make circles as small as .020" up to .177". At 70 Euros each these sets aren't cheap but are invaluable for projects like this. They also make a hex-head set that makes hexes from .025" up .100", and I've got that set, too.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
I also wanted to post shots like this yesterday but suffered a minor disaster that delayed shooting these photos. More on that later. I took these with most of the elements that are complete or well along in fabrication all mocked up in place. Even the lines running to the spar that supply hydraulic fluid pressure are more or less routed where they need to go:
With all these bits in place it really does look like a yarder. Even the seat is mocked up inside the footprint of the yet-unbuilt cab! I like how this is shaping up. Now about that disaster...
Yesterday I had the model mocked up almost like this, but did not have the stiff-leg pinned in place. The spar didn't have enough support, and the hinges broke off the winch bedplate. Those hinges are pieces of brass rod superglued to plastic channel stock, and the channel stock glued to the plastic bedplate. The break, which has happened a couple of times now during construction, tears the brass away from the C-channel. What I am now contemplating is shaving off the spar hinge completely and fabricating new hinge ends entirely of brass. The resulting C-channel portion will be somewhat overscale, but far, far stronger. I will have to use very slow-setting superglue to get the hinge placed correctly again, but at least I now have other hard points established to help align it. The spar can be pinned to the hinge, and aligned while vertical using the spar saddle and the stiff-leg pinned to the front of the bedplate. More later. On Monday I am off to photograph another yarder down the valley a ways...there might be a book to be written about these beasts from a modeler's standpoint.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Still churning away, in between trips to document more yarders and research for the book project. I've got the lines ready for the three powered guyline winches:
Each line is about six and a half feet long, which is accurate to scale. I may not need that much, but then again I might. Running the line through the sheaves and back down to a stowed position will take over two feet of that.
And I've started in on the cab at last:
It has been rather fussy getting the radiused corners done for the windows, and the raised weatherstripping to match on the outside surfaces. The long narrow rectangle with the large opening is the side with the door, and I'm evaluating whether or not I can construct that so it opens. That might not be possible since there might not be enough structural integrity otherwise.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Back again, with an illustration once again of how progress sometimes forces change. Take a look at this: We're all mocked up with the spar up and pinned in the saddle, with the deck and unfinished cab in place. Looks like its really coming together, doesn't it? Well, it is...but getting it here this morning revealed that my previous process for getting the spar pinned won't work going forward. For whatever reason, prior to today I had always inserted the pin from the deck/cab side and pushed it in. Probably because that way offered more working room. But it's clear from the next shot why that won't work:
Not enough clearance on that side any more. So I have to push the pin in from the other side, setting it in the spar pivot and pushing it through from underneath the spar. It's a little tricky. I cut a little bit of the pin this morning, and sanded off the paint, to make it move more easily. This exercise revealed that I will have to make a new pin, perhaps slightly over-scale in length, to make it easier to work with. The real one is the same color as the yarder, with rust; mine might have to be just rust or some other color with rust. The glossy orange builds up pretty thick for moving parts like this, so I'll have to avoid it where I can. I also found that I need to use a curved dental tool to push on the pin from the cab side to get it out far enough under the spar to pull it with tweezers. This will be fun once the guylines are rigged...
Which brings me to another observation. Until I get a tractor-trailer built, I will display this with the spar up. For these shots, the spar is held up in part because without the Skyline sheave on top, it pushes against the roof of the light box. When complete, the stowed stiff-leg & hydraulic cylinder will limit motion a little, but it will be the guylines that take the strain, just as on the real yarder. This also means moving it, like to a show, in this condition. I'm a little uneasy about that. I've been able to secure Sherman models snugly with foam for years, but none of them has had a vertical component a third of a meter tall sticking out.
As for that cab, the floor is and will remain a separate part, and the chair swivels and can lift off entirely. Brass rods were used for that. The cab door will probably be glued shut for strength. The cab and chair base will always be removable so that I don't break of the eventual window guards when I pin the spar.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Well, last week was something of a trial. It started promisingly enough, as I shot some Orange on the spar and other pieces, and set them aside to cure. I then decided that it was time to get the model on its wheels and attach the bogies. The front and rear units, which had their heights pre-set, were not a problem. But the center units caused me no end of grief, all self-inflicted. I let a little glue get into the space where the volute spring sits, and soon the center units had their wheels on the ground but the front units did not. Working at the middle units with tweezers didn't help, so finally there was nothing for it but to pry the bogies off, open them up, and pull the volute spring parts. Fortunately I had spares. In the meantime, I got the railings and ladder on the deck, and that is ready for primer. The orange takes forever to cure, and as late as Saturday morning I put fingerprints in the paint on the front box cover. I wasn't terribly happy with the finish anyway, so sanding the prints off wasn't a big deal, but it was annoying. I also managed to break the side rail forward while fussing with the bogies, so had to make a new one. The following shots show how things are mocking up now:
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"
Progress has been slow of late; I've been distracted by another project...the prime mover that will pull the (unbuilt) trailer this beast will eventually ride on. I've got a grey primer coat over the whole lower hull and deck assembly now. Same goes for the guyline winch sponson and the bedplate areas adjacent where I reworked the shape earlier.
Sharp eyes will notice that the priming gray is not sticking terribly well to the silicone and vinyl wires, revealing the black surface beneath. I'm not bothered by that, since the real machines show that paint doesn't stick terribly well to the real hydraulic hoses, either. What flakes off, flakes off, and becomes part of the eventual weathering. Not visible, because I didn't shoot a head-on shot, are the casting marks on the differential. I used Archer's set to make a diff cover made by Continental Foundry and Machine works of Coraopolis (Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania.
The cab has a door coming along well, though it has no hinges yet and won't be attached until the end. I need access through the opening to paint the interior and add the glass inside, so the door may just get attached with Elmer's in the end. The little black handle (another one is on the inside surface)came from a snap-fit GMC Bison cab; I bought the assembled & broken truck for five bucks at a show vendor's table a few years ago with this sort of parting-out in mind. Next up for the cab is to work on fabricating a roof, and then the brush guards for all the windows. The latter will give my Chopper tools a workout making the frames and standoffs. And I'll have to figure out when and how to attach them, since the brush guards will be black and the cab will be white. Masking behind an installed guard doesn't look appealing.
"You could probably use some armor. A Sherman can give you a very nice...edge!"